Interview With Prof. Dr. Busby And Leuren Moret – Fallujah, Fukushima And The Global Radiation Catastrophe … And The Fascist New World Order


Interview: MP3: Leuren Moret & Chistopher Busby (The Real Deal):

NB: The mp3 link has been corrected with the February 2012 interview.

Fallujah, Fukushima, & the Global Radiation Catastrophe, Part 1 (Veterans Today, Feb. 13, 2012):

A camel lies dead at the side of a road near the Saudi capital of Riyadh

by Jim Fetzer, Leuren Moret and Christopher Busby

Over the past century, the American military has been transformed into the supreme global “military cop”, in large measure for the  financial benefit of the international banking cartel and transnational corporations.

This transformation is manipulated daily by the international financiers, also known as the Zionist Anglo-American “permanent war crimes racketeering syndicate”, which secures mineral resources in weaker countries and pumps vast quantities of drugs into the global market.

Headquartered in Hong Kong, the UK and China are partners in a hidden global drug economy with 5 times more money circulating than in the economy we know.

The cost of these military adventures since World War II, accelerated by the introduction of nuclear weapons, has been very high and may even lead to the extinction of our species.

Two million US soldiers and veterans since 1990 are medically disabled, dying homeless in the streets of America, with little help from the US government.

Poisoned with depleted uranium and the “smog of war”, soldiers are guaranteed a death sentence on the modern battlefield where a new form of nuclear Kabuki warfare has been secretly raging for more than twenty years.

The global effect of the resulting nuclear pollution has been a drastic increase in birth defects, infant mortality, and death rates across continents, regions and mountain ranges.

German Salt Mine Storage – the Sloppy Days

A stunning global decline in fertility and birth rates, with an increase in death rates, will result in the economic decline and loss of cultural and physical viability in countries, where the replacement birth rate is falling and populations are shrinking.

Elevated levels of uranium in Los Angeles drinking water were reported, and correlated with individual battles in the Middle East and Afghanistan during 2006-07.

Iran has one of the highest declines of fertility in the world, from 8+ children per woman before Chernobyl in 1986, to less than two children per woman by 2002, and continuing to decline over the past decade.

The astounding increase in Iranian deaths in 2006-07, was 3.6 million, a seemingly inexplained 4.7% drop in population in a single year.  In the same time period many thousands of camels died throughout the Middle East and North Africa, 5,000 alone in Saudi Arabia and no known cause.

Such a catastrophic and acute phenomenon in both humans and animals indicates an environmental cause.  Forensic evidence is now emerging that Iran has been the target of a covert nuclear war since 1990, carried out by the US and the UK from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Iran is not the real nuclear threat, which instead derives from  the US and Britain, who are partners in new forms of nuclear annihilation with the world’s population downwind.  Brace yourself for what you are about to learn.

“The Real Deal” Radio Show (February 3, 2012)

Host: Jim Fetzer: James Fetzer Ph.D.

Dr. Busby: Christopher Busby, Ph.D.
Leuren Moret: Leuren Moret, B.S., M.A., PhD (ABD)

Editor’s Note: This transcription was prepared by William B. Fox, Publisher, America First Books, who also helped organize this interview.

Hour One

Dr. Fetzer: This is Jim Fetzer, your host on “The Real Deal” with a return engagement of two simply extraordinary guests I have had in the past. Leuren Moret, an independent geoscientist who has done expert studies on the Fukushima disaster and radiation problems around the world, including depleted uranium, and Dr. Christopher Busby, a visiting biomedical studies professor at the University of Ulster and the co-author of reports about the effects of depleted uranium — but it turns out to be enriched uranium — in Iraq, especially in Fallujah. Our interviews about this have been previously archived at Veterans Today, in particular under the heading of [hour one: “Catastrophic Effects of Radiation Contamination” and hour two:] “New Bombs and War Crimes in Fallujah” Leuren and Chris welcome to the show.

Dr. Christopher Busby: Yes, hello.

Leuren Moret: Thank you.

Dr. Fetzer: I am so pleased to have you both here today. I thought we would begin with Leuren giving us an update on what has been going on with Occupy Wall Street in Oakland and related issues, because it seems as though the government is using military-type tactics and weapons, some of which appear to be very sophisticated. Leuren, could you bring us up to date?

L. Moret: Well in October the Homeland Security, local law enforcement, the Oakland Police Department, which is the FBI COINTELPRO headquarters for northern California, and even troops from Bahrain in the Middle East practiced terrorism drills on the UC Berkeley campus. This was in October in anticipation of the Occupy movement. And so now we know they are including foreign troops in this too.

Dr. Fetzer: That is pretty bizarre, all by itself, Leuren, foreign troops in the United States. I think if the American people knew that, they would be outraged.

Fig. 1: ISRAEL’S ELITE SWAT TEAM WINS INTERNATIONAL URBAN SHIELD 2011 COMPETITIONFor the second consecutive year since Israel’s Police elite SWAT team, the “YaMaM,” has participated in the prestigious Urban Shield counter-terror competition in the USA, the YaMam has once again won first place.  Similar to last year’s impressive win, Israel’s accomplishment remains strangely, highly under-reported. The only mention of this impressive achievement is on the Facebook page for Israel’s police.  32 SWAT teams from the USA, the FBI and from other countries, participated in the non-stop 48 hour competition. The competition included counter-terror, dealing with serious crimes, hostage retrieval, and a variety of tactical and urban combat situations.   Source

L. Moret: Well people are pretty outraged here. And so then the Occupy movement, pretty much in California, started on the UC Davis campus which is one of the most conservative of the UC campuses because it has an agriculture history. And now this is really interesting, the new chancellor of UC Davis — I have two degrees from UC Davis — is a Greek woman, and she was involved in the student riots and protests in Greece, I have forgotten when it happened, maybe the 60?s or 70?s. And she is extremely conservative and she refused to even talk to the students. They were just sitting on the sidewalks in silence and in a park, and she ordered the UC Davis police to go down and pepper spray those protestors, so there are these great video clips – taken from cell phones – of this officer just walking up and down this line of maybe 30 or 50 students sitting with their heads down and their hands on their laps, and he just sprayed them in the face and all over their bodies with pepper spray.

Fig. 2: OCCUPY MOVEMENT AT U.C. DAVIS CAMPUS (Photo: REUTERS – Brian Nguyen) A University of California at Davis police officer pepper-sprays students during their sit-in at an “Occupy UCD” demonstration in Davis, California in this 18 November 2011 file photo. Source

And so the Occupy movement spread from there and we have had a lot of Occupy movement situations going on for the last couple of weeks in Oakland, California, which is across the San Francisco Bay from San Francisco.

Dr. Fetzer: Leuren, I have seen those videos of the campus police officer pepper-spraying those students, and it is completely stunning. They are totally passive.


L. Moret: Yes.

Dr. Fetzer: I am sure it violates all of the guidelines for the use of pepper spray. It is not only blatantly unethical, abusive of the students, but I am sure it is in violation of the law.

L. Moret: There was not even any justification for it.

Dr. Fetzer: No justification whatsoever.

L. Moret: And so what has happened as a result, is that the police presence and police force keeps getting ramped up with each one of these Occupy situations in different cities and campuses. And just on the weekend, that would be the end of January 2012, in Oakland they arrested 400 people. And then the demonstrators were marching through Oakland. They were going to occupy an empty building and the police have just increased their pressure to shut it down. And along with this is that there has been an increase in communications disruption, telephones, Internet, computers, with an increase in electromagnetic frequency (EMF) weapons used at all levels against everyone in various parts of the U.S. on the Occupy movement. And this was all funded by George Soros.

The whole Occupy movement in the U.S. is a George Soros project. And it is a continuation of the colored and flowered revolutions that he funded in Central Asia, then Eastern Europe, then North Africa, then the Middle East, and so basically the United States is being overthrown right now in a silent revolution funded by George Soros who is an agent for the City of London bankers. The Rothschilds.

Dr. Fetzer: Well, elaborate on that Leuren. I mean, you know, Soros as an agent, what would the Rothschild banking system have to benefit from the Occupy movement?

L. Moret: Well, it is an overthrow of the U.S. government. The North American governments. They are even doing Occupy movements in Canada. So it is a transition. And it is a transition from civil society and more democratic governments to fascism.


This has been underway for a long time. And Tun Dr. Mahathir [bin Mohamad], the former Prime Minister of Malaysia, who Dr. Busby has also joined with us at conferences, antiwar conferences, organized by Dr. Mahathir in Malaysia, he told me about George Soros and how George Soros had gone into Southeast Asian countries and looted their economies. And he said Indonesia was the most damaged. And he said they tried to loot Malaysia, which Dr. Mahathir built that whole economy over his 22 year period as Prime Minister of Malaysia. And he said he was able to fight very hard and to protect most of the money in the economy. He said they got some, but they didn’t get very much. And so these operatives, Warren Buffet is another one, they are all operating on behalf of the international financiers. And these Soros-funded revolutions all over Central Asia and Eastern Europe and North Africa and the Middle East and now North America are to destabilize governments and weaken them so that the bankers can steal more money.

Dr. Fetzer: Well Leuren, let me ask a couple of rather naive questions. It seems to me the United States has already become a fascist police state, that signing the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 which subverted four or five different articles of the Bill of Rights was like completing a grand slam against the Constitution that was initiated by the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act under George W. Bush. It seemed to me therefore that not only has Barack Obama and most of the politicians, the Senators and Congressmen who have been supporting all of this violated their oath, the same oath I took as a Marine Corps officer to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies foreign and domestic, but that the Occupy movement has been there to protest the growing inequalities in the distribution of wealth between the one percent and the 99% and also to oppose these endless wars of aggression against nations that never attacked us, including in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, and of course the threatened attack on Iran, which has no justification whatsoever. So it has seemed to me that the Occupy movement has been a positive sign of young people in this country becoming politically aware and taking active measures to oppose the fascist police state that is already here. So I am puzzled, you know, that your take seems to be that the Occupy movement is a tool of fascism when it seems to me that the Occupy movement has been a form of resistance to fascism.

L. Moret: Well it appears to be a form of resistance. That is one aspect of it. And certainly not all people participating are bad. But, I would like you to answer a question. Why did George Soros privately fund the Occupy movement through a private organization, an NGO, that is almost exclusively lawyers?

Dr. Fetzer: Leuren, I have no idea. Actually, personally, I don’t know that to be the case, but assuming –

L. Moret: It is the case. It is the case.

Dr. Fetzer: But assuming it is the case, I just don’t have an answer for that.

L. Moret: This is not a grass roots movement. This is a Soros-funded takeover or introduction of the police state.

But I don’t want to really talk about this anymore because Dr. Busby is on the line and maybe we should move on to –

Dr. Fetzer: No, I am just curious the difference in our general takes on this because I thought the Occupy Movement was a positive –

L. Moret: I don’t really know that much about it. I know who funded it. I know it is a private organization. And it is made up of lawyers, and I know this is not originally a grass roots movement.

Dr. Fetzer: Yes, yes, yes. Well Chris, I don’t know if you feel comfortable adding your own perspective to this, but if you do, I would be glad to have it.

Dr. Busby: Well I think the real question here is who are the “bad guys”? In the last five years I have had every single group of people named to me by different conspiracy theorists as being the bad guys. From the Zionists to the lizards, from outer space to the Rothschilds, who very commonly pop up with all sorts of Jewish bankers. I mean there is an entire sort of spectrum of conspiracy theories out there, and I kind of put them all on the shelf of my mind, you know, as possible.

But my main belief is that rather than moaning about what is happening, I think the time has come to try and do something about it. And what I think is required here is some sort of new ideology. And I am working with some colleagues to try and create such a thing. Because what it seems to me is that with the fall of the Soviet Union, the last major world ideology if you like, we now live in a sort of a monstrous chaos situation which is just controlled by a lot of different people who are all scrabbling for power in a system which is dominated by money and by a sort of monster created by an economic system. And in a sense, to my mind, you don’t really have to have “bad guys”. The system itself is the “bad guy”. It is going to create the economics. Once you set up this sort of economic system and allow it to run, it almost automatically produces a monster. And this monster is a “short term gains” monster. So you have a whole load of organizations, if you like, all connected to each other by instant communication systems, which are constantly aimed at making more money instantly on the basis of any change in their environment, and that to me is sufficient to explain nearly everything that is going on.

Now in the late 1960?s, obviously I am a hippie, I come from a long — I suspect Leuren was one too, you know…

Dr. Fetzer: [Laughter]

Dr. Busby: Well, I am sure she was, really.

Dr. Fetzer: [More laughter]

L. Moret: I really was not a hippie, believe it or not.

Dr. Busby: Weren’t you?

Dr. Fetzer: Should have been. Should have been!

Dr. Busby: Call it a hippie or call it what you like, but there was an enormous movement after the Second World War to try and make the world into a nice place, you know. A nice, loving place where there was sort of an equitable and just system for people to live happily. And there were a lot of very clever people, French intellectuals and philosophers and all sorts of psychologists and sociologists who were all trying to deconstruct the causes of the various world wars that there were. And by and large they succeeded, I think. Then we had this ideology that everybody could live happily and so forth, and there were revolutions, rather like the one you are talking about now, I guess. You know there were more revolutions. We had them in Germany, and Europe and in England. I was involved in the English one. But the problem is that they actually succeeded in a way.

But when they got to the point where they succeeded, nobody knew what to put in the place of the system that they had overthrown, intellectually and in terms of the general feeling of people, it seems to me. And what happened then was Reagan and Thatcher and all the bastards all kind of struck back, and the hippie movement was brought down by drugs and so forth. And since then nothing really has been there to replace it in terms of an ideology.

I think that is what is badly needed, an ideology, and I don’t think it is this group or that group or the other group, although I am sure they are all struggling for power. And they are all “bad guys”, but I don’t see it in quite the same terms as Leuren. I am sure Soros funds all sorts of people. But I am sure all sorts of people fund all sorts of people, in the hope that they might be able to gain something out of it. It doesn’t mean to say that they are the only “bad guys” around. That is my take on all of this sort of thing, anyway, and I think it is time we started to develop a new ideology.

Dr. Fetzer: I think that is very interesting. I myself have been among the Republican candidates for office stunned by Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum who have been calling for a first strike on Iran as though they were completely abysmally ignorant of world history.

Fig. 3:  WHO IS THE REAL NUCLEAR THREAT? Iran is surrounded by 45 U.S. military bases, fully armed with nuclear weapons, used on Middle Eastern battlefields since 1990.  Source

Iran hasn’t attacked another country for over 300 years. Iran has signed the Non- Proliferation Treaty (NPT). Iran has allowed inspectors into its country. There is no actual evidence that Iran is attempting to produce atomic weapons, indeed the Ayatollah has forbidden Iran from developing those weapons. Not only that, but if Iran had such a weapon it could not use it offensively without running the risk of nuclear annihilation. In fact a representative for the American Enterprise Institute has acknowledged that it really isn’t a question of whether Iran does or does not have nuclear weapons, but rather of Iran’s influence over the Middle East.

More recently we have reports of the actual issue that concerns the peaceful use of atomic energy – that Iran is planning to develop the nuclear energy rods that are needed to run the reactors, and that they have the potential to undercut the American nuclear energy industry and thereby cut into their profits, perhaps even put them out of business. And that that is really what is going on. But it actually is all a charade.

That the nuclear weapon issue is simply a complete smoke screen, and if anyone cared about nuclear weapons in the Middle East they ought to be concerned about Israel, which has 200 to 600 of these little beauties. It has never signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty. Won’t allow inspectors into its country. Where if Israel or the United States were to attack Iran, estimates have it that there would be a million deaths of Iranians outright, and that as the contamination clouds spread over Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India, there would be a minimum of 35 million more additional premature deaths.  And indeed by some estimates, and I think the two of you are very well positioned to comment on this, by the estimates since there are some 80 of these different sites developing nuclear energy in Iran, that the results, the contamination should be so catastrophic, including Strontium 90, that it has the potential to spread worldwide and risk the extinction of the human species.

Dr. Chris Busby: Well I think we are well on the way to that already, to be honest, without having to attack Iran. I mean at the moment we have the dissemination of radionuclides from Fukushima and from Chernobyl and from the weapons used in the Middle East, and the evidence is that this is already having an effect on human fertility and obviously therefore also the fertility of living systems. So I am not sanguine about the future of the human race even now. But of course if they attack Iran, and I am sure that they would be using nuclear weapons to do so, and so it won’t be just whatever it is they bomb in Iran, it will be the releases from the nuclear weapons themselves. And those of course will go all over the globe.

We know from the weapons fallout in the 1960?s what effect that has, and that has been the cause of the current cancer epidemic. And so, well, what can I say. I mean these are resource wars fundamentally. I mean all of these invasions of the Middle East by the United States and allies, but mainly the United States –

L. Moret: And England!

Dr. Busby: — Well, yes of course and England, but [these invasions] have been to control the resources of the Middle East. I think that is mainly what is — and of course not only the resources of the Middle East, but the distribution of the resources of the Middle East using different types of money. Because one of the main problems going back to Saddam Hussein and then later on to Gaddafi was the decision by those people, to move their financial systems into the Euro, and in the case of Gaddafi into gold, to create the Arab dinar. And so of course that would have undercut the dollar as a world trade currency, and the dollar as a world trade currency is the only way that the United States can survive. Because as long as that trade system exists, the dollars can just be created. They can just print them. But of course, you know, if they sell you the oil in the United States and they say, “Oh look, sorry mate but we want to have gold dinars,” or “We want to have Euros for this, then you are in trouble because you don’t have them.”

L. Moret: I would like to make a comment too.

Dr. Fetzer: Yes.

L. Moret: Did you want to say something Jim?

Dr. Fetzer: Yes, I just wanted to say that I wanted to stay for the moment in the Middle East, however, and then, during the next segment we will turn to Japan. But please do add what you would like to say.

L. Moret: Well during all the military adventures of the British Empire in the 1700?s and 1800?s they were, as everyone knows, all over the world and involved in India and China and so forth and so on. And all that militarism nearly bankrupted the British government. What has happened now in the 20th and 21st centuries is that the baton for militarism has been passed on from the British to the U.S.

We are the military cop and the military bully for England now, the British Empire.  And in Iraq and Afghanistan and also Yugoslavia, the United States sent many, many, many soldiers and funded all these military ventures. We have two million medically disabled American soldiers. I live in Berkeley California. They are living in the streets. They are dying next to the sidewalk behind bushes. They are dying in the parks. The VA has done almost nothing for them.

And recently it came out that the government of China has now made an agreement or contracts or whatever to secure much of the oil reserves in Iraq. So could you please tell me how the U.S. benefited from invading Afghanistan to protect the British and their opium crops and to secure the oil for China which the London bankers are pumping now, and dumping the western economies, and I would just like to know what we got besides all the bills for all that militarism.

And the wars are not over. The Navy is developing much more horrific electromagnetic rail guns to plunder more countries of their resources, mostly for the British and for corporations, international corporations. And I just think that we have to look at who is behind this global agenda. It is not just a few “bad guys”. It is financiers and corporations. And why are so many of our pension funds, university pension funds and investment portfolios, retirement pension funds – this is not just in the U.S., it is Canada too – and government pension funds are invested in the U.S. war machine.

Two hundred and fifty American war corporations are much of the investment, much of the funds, retired government pension funds for Canadian government and the national government and for the different regions and provinces are invested in American war corporations. So until you follow the money you don’t know what you are talking about. And I am not talking about the two of you.

Dr. Fetzer: [Laughter]

L. Moret: I mean me too. But until I started investigating nuclear weapons and the nuclear weapons program I had no idea about anything, any agenda, any “bad guys”, any politics, I could not care less. All I wanted to do was go on field trips all over the world.

And when I started following the trail of the nuclear weapons it took ten years, Jim. And it took me to London and Wall Street. It is the international financiers that weapons of mass destruction (WMD) exist for. And they have been created so that they can loot the world of natural resources.

Dr. Fetzer: Leuren those are all excellent points. We have to take our first break. This is Jim Fetzer, your host on “The Real Deal” with my special guests today Leuren Moret and Dr. Christopher Busby. We will be right back.


Dr. Fetzer: This is Jim Fetzer your host on “The Real Deal” continuing my conversation with Leuren Moret, an independent geoscientist, who has done especially expert studies on Fukushima, and Dr. Christopher Busby, a visiting Biomedical Studies Professor at the University of Ulster, who has done brilliant research on the effects of enriched uranium, it turns out in Iraq, especially in Fallujah.

Leuren I think you were making some simply excellent points. I would just like to add that it also stuns me that these candidates for the Republican nomination are also abysmally ignorant of the history of international law, where treaties into which the United States has entered in relation to the Constitution, have the same status under the law as the Constitution itself, and these extend as far back as the Hague Convention of 1899, the Kellogg-Briand Peace Treaty of 1928, and even the United Nations Charter which obligate member nations to negotiate with other nations and not to resort to military force, with the only exception is when they confront an imminent threat. There is no imminent threat posed by Iran, just as there was no imminent threat posed by Iraq or Afghanistan, much less Libya where NATO was the intermediary, all of which has disgusted me in the extreme.

But for these people to offer themselves as candidates to become President of the United States, when they don’t know history and they don’t know international law is simply appalling. I mean they are actually talking about first strikes that would be in violation of the Constitution for which they are hoping to assume an office that would commit them to an oath to preserve, protect, and defend. To me it is all about as absurd a form of political theater as one could imagine.

L. Moret: Well just look at Newt Gingrich. He can’t even be faithful to his wives. Not just one wife. [Laughter]. So if people take an oath of office, and they can’t even keep their own family dynamics straight, then how in the world could you ever trust them? I mean that is just politicians. But, another thing that I wanted to comment about is, oh gosh, now I forgot, wait a minute.

Dr. Fetzer: It will come back. It will come back. Chris, let me ask you this. I think we have, of course based upon your research, a dramatic reduction in normal births in Iraq. As I recall the statistics are like a fourth of Iraqi pregnancies end in still births, and of the live births, three quarters are suffering from severe genetic defects. And of course those genetic defects are going to remain in the genome of the Iraqi people indefinitely. I mean you know how are we ever going to overcome this problem?

Dr. Busby: Well it is not indefinitely. I mean what happens is that once the signal has run out of the genome, which it does following any person who does not have any child before they die, I mean that is basically how it works, then I suppose it will kind of recover. But it will be quite a long time. I mean from what we see from the studies that have been done after Chernobyl on mice and voles, there will be at least twenty two generations where these signals have maintained themselves. So it does seem as if there is going to be quite a lot of genetic damage manifested in those populations for quite a long time. And of course that is some kind of war crime.

L. Moret: It is irreversible.

Dr. Fetzer: Chris has explained that it may be something from which recovery is possible after a vast number, in this case of mice, twenty two generations, Leuren, so–

L. Moret: Well, Muller did early, early genetic studies before 1920 on Drosophila melanogaster which is the fruit fly. He exposed males to X-rays and then studied them — because they have such a short reproductive cycle, and you can get so many generations over a very short period of time.  Even before 1920 he had proved that these mutations caused by ionizing radiation are permanent, in the genome, and they never reverse themselves. He won the Nobel Prize in 1946 for that work. It is irreversible. It is permanent, and there is no way it is going to mend itself.


Early studies during bomb testing indicated that for each visible birth defect in fetuses exposed to ionizing radiation, ten internal defects occurred.  When sperm or ovum carry mutations, the mutations are expressed in every cell of the new organism, and passed on to all future generations as permanent genetic damage. (Atomic Radiation and Life Rev.Edit. by P. Alexander (1965) Penguin Books. Source: Information bulletin of the population health in 18 contaminated territories and medical help to liquidators of the Chernobyl consequences in 1985-1996, Department of Health and Medical Industry of the Tula Region, Tula, 1997 (in Russian).

Dr. Fetzer: Well Chris, are you alluding to that portion of the population that may not have been so exposed, or do you believe actually, even in regard to the –

Dr. Busby: I think that everybody was exposed. But from what we know about genomic instability, and I am not talking about the genetic effects that Muller was studying, what we now know is that there is a random signal which is associated with what is called “genomic instability”. And this signal controls sort of random mutation in the descendants, in any individual that carries this signal. But actually not all individuals are set up to do this. So there does seem to be a proportion of any population which appears to be immune from this process and that the cells which are or would be affected by this process actually just die. So there seems to have been some kind of fork in evolution which has resulted in two types of individuals and two types of cells, too. The cell that, when it receives damage, just commits suicide, and then the other sort of cell which, when it receives damage, switches on this genomic instability signal. So that is kind of what I am talking about. So there probably will be a proportion of this population who will have been exposed, but will not manifest this signal in the same way as the others, or even at all.

Dr. Fetzer: If you are talking about 22 generations, and if we measured a generation in terms of, say, an early reproductive cycle, roughly 20 years, you are talking about 440 years.

Dr. Busby: Of course, yes, sure. I mean you know it is a very long time. So it is nothing that we should rejoice about. But I am just saying that seems to be the evidence at this moment.

Dr. Fetzer: The prospect that the human species is going to have extinguished itself long before there is genetic recovery in Iraq seems to me to be overwhelming.

Dr. Busby: I tell you I have just finished off a book about Fukushima, and in this book which is in Japanese actually – I was writing with a Japanese woman, what we considered was the population of Belarus. Now if you look at the population of Belarus, after the Chernobyl accident there was an instant drop in the birth rate. It went down and down and down and down. And at the same time, at exactly the same point, the death rate went up and up and up and up and up.


Belarus birth rate and death rate in the Tula region (1985-1995): all districts, 18 contaminated areas and 7 clean districts. Source: Information bulletin of the population health in 18 contaminated territories and medical help to liquidators of the Chernobyl consequences in 1985-1996, Department of Health and Medical Industry of the Tula Region, Tula, 1997 (in Russian).

And about five years after the Chernobyl accident these two crossed each other, and so if you divide the death rate by the birth rate, or the birth rate by death rate, you get sort of a demographic index which you can also plot. And what this shows is a loss of a number of people enabling replacement of the population. And when you get below a certain level, you just do not get population replacement. And that is what we see in Belarus and we see it in a lot of other countries affected by the Soviet Union. And we will certainly see it in Japan. And I think generally the way things are going, with the contamination of the biosphere by radionuclides from all sorts of sources, we are going to see this generally on the planet. And this is extraordinarily worrying.

Dr. Fetzer: Chris, just for clarification, now as the replacement rate drops, you have a shrinking population. Now in relation to that shrinking population is it still the case that the replacement rate is going to lead to increasing shrinkage?

Dr. Busby: Well it certainly seems to be the case in Belarus when you look at it so far. And of course, you know, it is obvious just from mathematics that the fewer people you have to breed, the fewer children there will be, and therefore the fewer children there will be to breed and so on. I mean this is what we see in the Newfoundland cod, you know. If you reduce the population to a certain point, it cannot recover.

Dr. Fetzer: And we are talking about large scale human populations.

Dr. Busby: We certainly are. In Belarus, we are talking about an entire country. And I have seen similar effects when you look at the demographic index of the Baltic states where a lot of radioactivity came. I mean I haven’t studied it extensively, but theoretically it is quite predictable that this effect is happening all over the globe.

Of course the people who want to make loads of money would like to see this because there has been an enormous Malthusian expansion in population and people have been endlessly moaning about the fact that there are limits to the amount of food that can be produced and the amount of energy that is necessary to keep these people sustained and so on.

Dr. Fetzer: The carrying capacity.

Dr. Busby. So you could argue that if there were “bad guys” up there at the top, you know, and they had some kind of plan, then that plan might well include the extinction of a large proportion of the human race using some sort of chemical weapons.

And of course that is another conspiracy theory that we read all over the place on the Internet.

Dr. Fetzer: But Chris, it seems as though this phenomenon is clearly going to take place in the Middle East.

Dr. Busby: Yes, I think so.

Dr. Fetzer: And of course in Japan, where I want to invite Leuren’s comments, but she had previously observed, and I believe you two had confirmed, that in Israel itself that the replacement rate is not being fulfilled, and therefore that Israel is also destined for extinction.

Dr. Busby: That is right. Yes. That was pointed out following a study that was done in Jerusalem of sperm counts. But you have to consider, I mean the state of Israel to some extent, they would be very concerned about the Arab population because of just human behavior. Because the Arabs breed at a faster rate than the Israelis, so ultimately they would breed their way to democratic success. So any mechanism that would kill them off would be something that somebody might embrace, you know, if they were a “bad guy”, and they wanted to…

Dr. Fetzer: We are talking about “K selection and r selection.”

Dr. Busby: Yes, sure, sure, sure. Anyway, you know, all of this is very sad, but all of it is very real as well. And I think that we need to — well, I don’t know what we need to do — but we need certainly to communicate with the powerful and the rich, and the people who might well be in charge of trying to change the world in the way that Leuren is talking, to communicate with them that they actually are not going to survive either.

Dr. Fetzer: Yes.

Dr. Busby: That there is no way that they can cut themselves off from these effects.

Dr. Fetzer: Yes. I think that is part of their stupidity. They are simply so ignorant of ecology and evolution Chris that they do not understand that the consequences they are inducing on the subpopulations are going to affect the entire population eventually.

Dr. Busby: That’s right.

L. Moret: I would just like to make a comment about for instance the Rothschilds who are the London bankers, and they certainly have a global grip on economics, but since the 1700?s, since Mayer Amschel Rothschild ordered his children to marry their first cousins in order to keep the money in the family, why is anyone presuming these are sane people? They are not. They have inbred in their own family for many, many generations – 250 years, 260 years. So we are talking about people who — they don’t have mental faculties like we do. They are different. They are not like us.

Dr. Fetzer: But Leuren, I might grant all of that. It is also true of the Mitt Romneys and the Rick Santorums. Rick Santorum is such a lunatic he doesn’t even believe in contraception, so here is a man who is one at the same time avowedly pro-life.  He won’t even allow abortion or permit it in the case of rape or incest, although apparently in his own family his wife confronted a birth that was going to cost her life, and they decided to go ahead with an abortion.  But he wants to curtail the use of contraceptives, sex education, birth control, which of course is going to bring more unwanted children into the world, and therefore increase the rate of abortion. I mean these people, their views are completely incoherent.

L. Moret: He is not going to get elected. Obama is going to get selected.

Dr. Fetzer: Well the point I am making Leuren, is even some of our prominent political figures, these are two of the four remaining candidates for President of the United States on the Republican side, are insane. That they have views that are not rational. That they are completely detached from reality. Some like Santorum’s in particular are incoherent. He does not have a consistent set of beliefs.

L. Moret: Well do you know what Fidel Castro said last week? He said, “These are the craziest candidates, this is the most disgusting street theater I have ever seen. It is not an election, it is a nightmare.”

Dr. Busby: Can I say something? Do we really believe that these people, all these nutcases that eventually get into office, do we believe that they really are the people who make the decisions? I mean, surely it is not them at all. They are just puppets. They are people who are chosen because they appeal to all the lunatics who vote for them, and so somebody goes along and figures out what level of lunatic is necessary to get the right sort of vote, and then they just provide the candidate to appeal to that set of lunatics. You know how it works.

Dr. Fetzer: What a terrible commentary on the state of politics. I mean we used to have responsible figures who were running for high office.

Dr. Busby: Oh come on. Ronald Reagan — you’re serious?

Dr. Fetzer: I am going all the way back to Franklin Delano Roosevelt and JFK. Yeah, Ronald Reagan, I know. Reagan’s presidency actually represented the turning point in American political history, Chris, because it was up until Reagan and since World War II that there had been a gradual diminution in the gap between the rich and the poor. You know, more and more equality. The labor unions were becoming strong. There was a very healthy middle class. America was a prosperous, productive, manufacturing and industrial center. And since Reagan all that has been reversed. The gaps have been growing wider, and when we have NAFTA and the WTO, all the jobs have gone worldwide with this globalization. And the United States, the middle class is…

Dr. Busby: I think it was perfectly clear to us in England, and it was certainly clear to me, that when Reagan appeared on the scene it was just Hollywood, you know. That what was being done there was just create a person, choose a person who was handsome and would appeal to the American people in some way, and then they would vote for him, and whoever was pulling his strings behind the scenes would have power. And that was that.

L. Moret: It was Henry Kissinger and the Rockefellers who put [correction: Reagan] in.

Dr. Busby: OK, OK, well, whoever, but anyway, that is the point, and all this discussion now about these lunatics who are standing at the moment, it is just more of the same, really.

Dr. Fetzer: [Laughter]

L. Moret: But the point is that it’s the Rockefellers who backed the candidates in every election, and they duped the American public into voting for Democrats that get set up with them, so they jump to Republicans in the next election, back and forth.

Dr. Busby: I am sure you are right, I’m sure you are right on that.

L. Moret: And every time, the Rockefellers get re-elected in reality, with no change.

Dr. Fetzer: So Leuren, let me ask you the following question, I mean, my impression has long been that the Rockefellers are on one side, and the Rothschilds are on another. So I mean –

L. Moret: They are on the same side.

Dr. Fetzer: Oh, I see.

L. Moret: The Rockefellers work for the Rothschilds.

Dr. Busby: I think they are all the same people, myself.

L. Moret: They are all the same people. But I want to talk about Iran. That is what I was trying to talk about that I forgot.

Dr. Fetzer: OK.

L. Moret: And what I discovered when I was writing a War Crimes Complaint for the Malaysia War Crimes Conference, is I started looking at Iran, and I looked at the demographics. And what I found was astounding. The Iranian fertility rate in women was over eight children per woman before Chernobyl in 1986. And one year after Chernobyl the fertility rate for the country of Iran had dropped by one child to seven children per woman. By 2002 the fertility rate had dropped to two children per woman. And by 2007 the fertility rate had dropped below one child per woman.


The decline in fertility rates in Iran began after 1986 following the Chernobyl disaster.  The rate of decline in fertility is linked globally to environmental deposition of radioactive pollution, and depends on geography and weather.  Clearly this UN graph of global fertility rates (1950-2050) [black on white] demonstrates that fertility rates in Iran [colored lines 1970-2002] have declined from the highest in the world before Chernobyl, to nearly the lowest in the world(Gilan Province and total rate for Iran) in the short period of 22 years .  The decline in Iranian fertility rates reported by province [in color] are highest in provinces with higher precipitation (Gilan Province), and lowest in the driest regions of Iran (Sistan and Baluchistan).  The effects of US and UK nuclear weapons used in Iraq since 1990, and Afghanistan since 2001, have clearly caused an undeclared catastrophic nuclear war against Iran. Source: World changes in fertility graph – UN Report “World Population Prospects: The 2008 Revision”. Iranian Fertility Rates: M.J. Abbasi-Shavazi, multiple research papers.

Dr. Fetzer: Really?

L. Moret: Yes.

Dr. Fetzer: So over that period of time they went from greater than the replacement rate for the population, to something marginally below the replacement rate. That’s astounding.

L. Moret: And not only that — this is from the CIA Factbook, and then as soon as I started printing these out, the site was blocked so I couldn’t get anything, but I do have what I printed out then. And then between 2006 and 2007 the Iranian population was about 68.8 million in 2004. And in one year it dropped from 2006 to 2007 from 68.8 million to 65.2 million.

Dr. Fetzer: Really.

L. Moret: That is a catastrophic [5.2% in one year] drop .

Dr. Fetzer: They must have noticed 3 million plus deaths in Iran. They had to notice that.

L. Moret: That is a very, very, very dramatic decline in one year, and what is interesting in that same year, 2006 to 2007, five million [correction: many thousands of] camels died all over the Middle East and Central Asia.

Dr. Fetzer: Five million camels!

L. Moret: Five thousand just in Saudi Arabia alone. There were more millions [correction: thousands] all over Central Asia and the Middle East.

Dr. Fetzer: What is the normal number of camel deaths per year, do you have an idea? That sounds like a staggering number.

L. Moret: Well it goes with the extermination of people and the increases in infant deaths and the decline in fertility. The death rates increased. They started in 2006. The death rates started increasing in Iran. And then I started realizing, I started gathering a lot of information, like where are the dust clouds concentrated in Iran. They are over the Alborz and the Zagros mountains. The Alborz Mountains go east-west at the southern end of the Caspian Sea, and the Zagros go north-south on the border of Iran with Iraq. That is where the snowfall and the rainfall is the highest. That is where all the water comes from for Iran.


July 5, 2009, satellite image (left) of the largest dust storm in memory in Iraq, spread to Saudi Arabia and Iran.  High summer temperatures and the shamal (northwest seasonal wind) caused the dust storm to rage in the Middle East for a week.  On the right the Ozone Monitoring Instrument (OMI) on NASA’s Aura satellite, measured the aerosol absorption optical depth of the dust.  The darkest brown areas represent the highest dust and depleted uranium concentrations in Iran, and the highest radiation contamination levels of the environment and water sources.  In the image on the left, the SE Asian Monsoon moving west over Afghanistan and Pakistan from India, rained out depleted uranium over northern Iran. Source: Images – NASA, and Leuren Moret’s Kuala Lumpur War Crimes complaint for Iraq.

And I realized when I started following monsoons in that area, that region, and also I was just kind of investigating the geography and the weather, and I realized that Iran has been targeted with an intense nuclear war. Much more intense than in Iraq and Afghanistan since 1990, because Iran is getting clobbered with radiation from Afghanistan, from the war in Yugoslavia, and from Iraq. And they are getting more than Iraq and Afghanistan. They are just having catastrophic death rates. A catastrophic decline in fertility. They are below the replacement population needed now. And we have been carrying out — the British and the U.S.– a nuclear war against Iran without anyone even knowing it.

Dr. Fetzer: Well that is staggering, and I take it what you are implying is that the weather, the rain, is bringing all the contaminants out of the atmosphere into the water that is the source for the Iranian population, and that is the mechanism by which this is taking place.

L. Moret: You are exactly right.

Dr. Fetzer: Chris, tell me, now I am not familiar enough with the geography here to locate Chernobyl in relation to Iran, but would all those things that Leuren has been describing, which sound quite catastrophic, be probable consequences of the Chernobyl disaster, or of course she is adding contributing causes from the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean this sounds quite stunning and appalling.

Dr. Busby: There was one plume that went from Chernobyl south and got down over Greece and northern Turkey, and I suppose it would have contaminated the mountains there too.

L. Moret: Well the fertility rate …

Dr. Fetzer: Hang on Leuren. Let Chris…

Dr. Busby: What I did notice is if you look at the mortality statistics, there does appear to be a sharp increase in infant mortality in many countries in Europe in 1991 which is kind of unexplained.

And I think perhaps that was caused by the First Gulf War. I think that is a reasonable explanation for it. And it is certainly true also that material from the first Gulf War was measured in the northern part of Iraq in the mountains of Kurdistan. I mean I met some Germans who were doing measurements of uranium on autopsy material from cows in the northern part of Iraq. So I think an awful lot of them — if you look at the weather patterns, an awful lot of the material from Iraq does go north into the mountains there and would therefore end up being rained, being washed down into Iran, and of course Iran is only just across the river from Iraq. So you know anything that is being produced in southern Iraq around about Basra and on the border you know would have drifted across the Euphrates and the Shatt al-Arab waterway into Iran.

Dr. Fetzer: So what do you think is the explanation for the diminishing reproduction rate in Europe?

Dr. Busby: Well, the same thing. Yes, sure. The same thing. I mean certainly in Belarus it began almost immediately after Chernobyl. And it is sort of like a double bump. And in other parts of Europe there was an infant mortality increase in 1991. And that is quite difficult to explain on the basis of Chernobyl. I mean I have tried to explain it. I have thought of all the various possible mechanisms. But it doesn’t really seem to follow the Chernobyl stuff. It is more likely something that happened in 1991. And of course we know what happened in 1991. There was an enormous distribution of radioactivity from all of the anti-tank weaponry that was used in Iraq.

Dr. Fetzer: We have got to take our next break. This is Jim Fetzer your host on “The Real Deal” with my very special guests today Leuren Moret and Dr. Christopher Busby. We will be right back.

[Part II will follow]

Jim Fetzer, McKnight Professor Emeritus at the University of Minnesota Duluth, is a former Marine Corps officer and the founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth.

Leuren Moret is an independent geoscientist who has done expert studies on the Fukushima disaster, radiation problems around the world including depleted uranium.

Dr. Christopher Busby is a visiting biomedical studies professor at the University of Ulster and is the co-author of reports about the effects of enriched uranium in Iraq especially in Fallujah.

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